This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
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About the PhotographerDawid Zieliński is a self-taught documentary photographer with a main focus on social and humanitarian issues. He aims to give voice to the victims of social injustice, political upheaval, and civil unrest, both in Poland and abroad. Dawid studied human geography at Jagiellonian University in Krakow, Poland. Zieliński has won several awards including Pictures of the Year International (POYi), NPPA Best of Photojournalism, and International Photography Awards (IPA). His press debut in 2016 earned him Grand Press Photo of the Year, highly acclaimed in his native Poland. Since 2016, Zieliński has been working as a contributing photographer for clients including The Wall Street Journal, Le Monde, Politico, Internazionale, Le Temps, Tygodnik Powszechny, and Gazeta Wyborcza to name only a few. He's been a member of The Archive of Public Protest collective since 2020. He currently lives in Poland. |
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Truth in Photography: Could you talk a little bit about The Archive of Public Protest?
Dawid Zieliński: I was intrigued when I heard about it from a friend, Wojtek Radwański, also an APP member. That was two years ago, when things were going slow on the photographic market. When Covid hit. He said, “I'm a part of The Archive of Public Protest. Why don't you send Rafał Milach some of your work? It doesn't pay, but it's good to be a part of this interesting initiative.” I joined, and bit by bit, I got drawn into it. We call it a platform of image dissemination. There's 18 of us at the moment, and we photograph protests all around the country, especially since the late 2020 tribunal decision on abortion rights. That's when the protests started getting bigger and people started protesting more. You would say it's like coming into an assignment to photograph a protest, but then the images become part of this archive which is made available for anyone who wants to make use of them in a noncommercial way. So, any artists, educators are more than welcome to use them. That's the basic idea.
Dawid Zieliński: I was intrigued when I heard about it from a friend, Wojtek Radwański, also an APP member. That was two years ago, when things were going slow on the photographic market. When Covid hit. He said, “I'm a part of The Archive of Public Protest. Why don't you send Rafał Milach some of your work? It doesn't pay, but it's good to be a part of this interesting initiative.” I joined, and bit by bit, I got drawn into it. We call it a platform of image dissemination. There's 18 of us at the moment, and we photograph protests all around the country, especially since the late 2020 tribunal decision on abortion rights. That's when the protests started getting bigger and people started protesting more. You would say it's like coming into an assignment to photograph a protest, but then the images become part of this archive which is made available for anyone who wants to make use of them in a noncommercial way. So, any artists, educators are more than welcome to use them. That's the basic idea.
TiP: Could you talk about yourself: your background and the kinds of work that you do?
Zieliński: I got serious about photography a few years ago. I was 30-something at the time and I'm entirely self-taught. I didn't attend any schools or educational programs. I sort of adopted the documentary, even photojournalist approach. But recently I've been looking around and poking a little bit to see where it ends and where another thing begins, which is how the APP approach came at a very good time for me. Recently, I've been working with the press a lot, especially since the war in Ukraine began. But before that, I did a lot of work for small commercial clients and NGOs. Another thing that attracted me to APP at the beginning was, you've probably heard this a lot, but photographers, especially documentary photographers, many of them say that they wish they could have done more. Especially with serious issues. They’re documenting people affected by some calamity or disaster, whether manmade or natural and they wish they could have done more than just make images. The APP allows just that. It allows this work to be taken by someone and reproduced and recreated in a different way, in a different context, reaching more people and reverberating again and again. And also, we make newspapers that are going back to the streets. We've done seven editions so far and most were crowdfunded. The recent one was on Ukrainian protest and anti-war protests. The newspapers had not just images and text, but also slogans that we've heard or seen on the streets during the protest. We printed them big in the newspaper, so you can spread out the newspaper and use it again as a protest sign with a slogan on it. So that's one way to give back. We give them out at protests and distribute to friendly organizations, for example, the local Ukrainian cultural center. So when you see them on the street, at another rally, or at another demonstration, it's really uplifting.
TiP: In terms of putting forth these newspapers, bringing forth, in a sense, an alternative imagery to what one sees in the mainstream, where do you think the truth in photography lies, or is there truth in photography?
Zieliński: I knew that this question would come up. I don't really use the word truth very often in relation to photography or what it depicts or what it shows. The one thing I can say is that I don't think there is one truth, you know? Two people looking at the same image can see different truths for themselves. I don't want to say it’s a vague concept in relation to photography, but it's difficult for me to pinpoint it exactly. But there is no one truth of it. That's what I think.
TiP: There’s also the ethical question: what are we showing to someone else? When you go into a situation as a photographer, do you think about that? The ethics of what you're photographing, particularly if there are issues of violence and death, but also people in terrible situations.
Zieliński: Well, you have to be thinking about it, and you have to be mindful of what it is that you're photographing and why. Why do you do it? Where do you stand on the issue? What do you want to say?
TiP: When you photograph Ukrainian protests, what do you focus on?
Zieliński: It really depends on the protest. On the people. There are certain visual objects that are often displayed and often photographed. But deep down, we hope to get some sort of emotional response. And if you're hoping to convey that emotion to the viewers, it’s not enough to photograph someone waving a flag or holding a sign. The real reason I go to the protest is to see the emotion and try to convey that, to pass it on.
Zieliński: I got serious about photography a few years ago. I was 30-something at the time and I'm entirely self-taught. I didn't attend any schools or educational programs. I sort of adopted the documentary, even photojournalist approach. But recently I've been looking around and poking a little bit to see where it ends and where another thing begins, which is how the APP approach came at a very good time for me. Recently, I've been working with the press a lot, especially since the war in Ukraine began. But before that, I did a lot of work for small commercial clients and NGOs. Another thing that attracted me to APP at the beginning was, you've probably heard this a lot, but photographers, especially documentary photographers, many of them say that they wish they could have done more. Especially with serious issues. They’re documenting people affected by some calamity or disaster, whether manmade or natural and they wish they could have done more than just make images. The APP allows just that. It allows this work to be taken by someone and reproduced and recreated in a different way, in a different context, reaching more people and reverberating again and again. And also, we make newspapers that are going back to the streets. We've done seven editions so far and most were crowdfunded. The recent one was on Ukrainian protest and anti-war protests. The newspapers had not just images and text, but also slogans that we've heard or seen on the streets during the protest. We printed them big in the newspaper, so you can spread out the newspaper and use it again as a protest sign with a slogan on it. So that's one way to give back. We give them out at protests and distribute to friendly organizations, for example, the local Ukrainian cultural center. So when you see them on the street, at another rally, or at another demonstration, it's really uplifting.
TiP: In terms of putting forth these newspapers, bringing forth, in a sense, an alternative imagery to what one sees in the mainstream, where do you think the truth in photography lies, or is there truth in photography?
Zieliński: I knew that this question would come up. I don't really use the word truth very often in relation to photography or what it depicts or what it shows. The one thing I can say is that I don't think there is one truth, you know? Two people looking at the same image can see different truths for themselves. I don't want to say it’s a vague concept in relation to photography, but it's difficult for me to pinpoint it exactly. But there is no one truth of it. That's what I think.
TiP: There’s also the ethical question: what are we showing to someone else? When you go into a situation as a photographer, do you think about that? The ethics of what you're photographing, particularly if there are issues of violence and death, but also people in terrible situations.
Zieliński: Well, you have to be thinking about it, and you have to be mindful of what it is that you're photographing and why. Why do you do it? Where do you stand on the issue? What do you want to say?
TiP: When you photograph Ukrainian protests, what do you focus on?
Zieliński: It really depends on the protest. On the people. There are certain visual objects that are often displayed and often photographed. But deep down, we hope to get some sort of emotional response. And if you're hoping to convey that emotion to the viewers, it’s not enough to photograph someone waving a flag or holding a sign. The real reason I go to the protest is to see the emotion and try to convey that, to pass it on.
TiP: There's that passion, there's that look of determination that people have. You want to get a sense of the humanity of the person that's protesting and the humanity of the protest in general. So, could you talk a little bit more about your work? Do you work as a photographer?
Zieliński: I work as a photographer. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I've been working mostly on stories related to the refugees from Ukraine in Poland. Various stories I did with the mostly foreign media, like the Wall Street Journal, Politico, Le Monde. Before that, I did work a little bit with the Polish press. I sort of mixed that with the work with the NGOs. And even before that, before Covid hit, I used to work with small commercial clients as well.
Zieliński: I work as a photographer. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I've been working mostly on stories related to the refugees from Ukraine in Poland. Various stories I did with the mostly foreign media, like the Wall Street Journal, Politico, Le Monde. Before that, I did work a little bit with the Polish press. I sort of mixed that with the work with the NGOs. And even before that, before Covid hit, I used to work with small commercial clients as well.
Nikita Azarkin, 32, a Ukrainian tattoo artist living in Berlin, Germany, is getting ready to board the bus headed to Ukraine at the Korczowa border crossing. Average Ukrainians from across Europe, often with no combat experience, are returning to their country to fight against the Russians. Korczowa, Poland, February 27, 2022. © Dawid Zieliński / The Wall Street Journal
A man wrapped in blankets to stay warm inside a makeshift tent set up for refugees by one of the aid organizations in Medyka. Refugees from Africa, Asia, and the Middle East said they were held at the border as Ukraine’s overwhelmed immigration officers prioritized processing its own citizens. Medyka, Poland, February 28, 2022. © Dawid Zieliński / The Wall Street Journal
TiP: You've also done things related to environmental issues. What kind of work have you done in that area?
Zieliński: I did a long-term project on Poland’s rural areas in the east. They're small farming communities. No big cities, no industry. Poland joining the European Union has really changed a lot for rural areas. The project was about how the local community and the landscape changed as an effect of all the technological change that was a part of the European subsidies for all the farming areas.
Zieliński: I did a long-term project on Poland’s rural areas in the east. They're small farming communities. No big cities, no industry. Poland joining the European Union has really changed a lot for rural areas. The project was about how the local community and the landscape changed as an effect of all the technological change that was a part of the European subsidies for all the farming areas.
TiP: So is it a positive change or a negative change?
Zieliński: It’s mostly positive, but there’s a sense that some farming traditions are being lost and farming becomes just a business, just like any other business. It used to be part of who the farmer was, and people were more connected to the land. Generally, most people would say it's a positive step forward. But the elder generation are a bit more skeptical of more modern farming techniques. And there are certain other issues that follow. For example, the youth are moving to the cities. Very few of them want to stay on their parents’ farm. They really have chosen a different life path or life goals. So, those are overlapping issues.
TiP: Is there another area in your work that you're interested in showing?
Zieliński: Before Covid hit, I was slowly documenting how the European landscape, especially the Central Europe and the Balkan states, has been changing following 2015 and the massive influx of immigrants and refugees, especially through Greece, and how it affected and still affects the social, political, and environmental landscape in the areas that were directly affected. The last photos for that project were made in 2019, and I don't think it's finished. I just haven't really gotten around to come back to it yet.
Zieliński: It’s mostly positive, but there’s a sense that some farming traditions are being lost and farming becomes just a business, just like any other business. It used to be part of who the farmer was, and people were more connected to the land. Generally, most people would say it's a positive step forward. But the elder generation are a bit more skeptical of more modern farming techniques. And there are certain other issues that follow. For example, the youth are moving to the cities. Very few of them want to stay on their parents’ farm. They really have chosen a different life path or life goals. So, those are overlapping issues.
TiP: Is there another area in your work that you're interested in showing?
Zieliński: Before Covid hit, I was slowly documenting how the European landscape, especially the Central Europe and the Balkan states, has been changing following 2015 and the massive influx of immigrants and refugees, especially through Greece, and how it affected and still affects the social, political, and environmental landscape in the areas that were directly affected. The last photos for that project were made in 2019, and I don't think it's finished. I just haven't really gotten around to come back to it yet.
Emrah, a refugee from Afghanistan, after spending another night at an unfinished hotel in the center of Bihac, Bosnia and Hercegovina. Shy and soft spoken, he turns silent when asked about details of his unsuccessful border crossing into Croatia. Many refugees report violent pushbacks and other abusive behavior by Croatian police and border patrol. August 28, 2019. © Dawid Zieliński
TiP: You mentioned the tribunal related to abortion rights. What's the outcome there? What's happened in Poland?
Zieliński: Ever since the early 1990s, there was a compromise about abortion, that it was allowed in certain circumstances. In late October 2020, the tribunal decided all of a sudden that most of these cases where abortion was legal, that it’s not going to be legal anymore. The abortion will be criminalized. The decision was made public and became law in January 2021. So, there was a wave of protests from October to January. There were hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets. And later on, it dissipated. But the movement is still there. So far, the tribunal's decision is still in place.
TiP: Do you feel that the protests are having a positive impact?
Zieliński: In the beginning, I would say yes. It felt like we did contribute to the movement, to this large community of people who were involved, channeling their anger, frustration, fear, and activism. We did not consider ourselves objective documentarians. There's nothing objective about it, but we felt we were part of this. We were part of the protest, part of the protesters, and we identified with them, so that it wasn't a purely journalistic instinct to go and photograph a protest.
TiP: That was advocacy as much as it was documentation. How do things look now in Poland? Do you think it can get better? We're faced with the same dilemma in the United States right now.
Zieliński: I don't think it has changed any for the better from a legal point of view. It’s even gotten worse in recent months. Women are dying from septic shock and preventable pregnancy complications. So we're stuck with the current situation. But like I said, the movement is here. The protests are not. There's the dynamics of the protests - when masses of people are hitting the streets, and everyone is angry, everyone wants to get things off their chests - it works very, very well in the short term. But, if it's a battle in the long run, then it's like a marathon. You have to be able to continue the fight one way or another. And the fight continues, just not in the streets: there are organizations providing information and assistance to women who want to execute their reproductive rights. Another important thing is that we are no longer afraid or ashamed to talk about it as a society. Women's reproductive health has become a mainstream issue.
Zieliński: Ever since the early 1990s, there was a compromise about abortion, that it was allowed in certain circumstances. In late October 2020, the tribunal decided all of a sudden that most of these cases where abortion was legal, that it’s not going to be legal anymore. The abortion will be criminalized. The decision was made public and became law in January 2021. So, there was a wave of protests from October to January. There were hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets. And later on, it dissipated. But the movement is still there. So far, the tribunal's decision is still in place.
TiP: Do you feel that the protests are having a positive impact?
Zieliński: In the beginning, I would say yes. It felt like we did contribute to the movement, to this large community of people who were involved, channeling their anger, frustration, fear, and activism. We did not consider ourselves objective documentarians. There's nothing objective about it, but we felt we were part of this. We were part of the protest, part of the protesters, and we identified with them, so that it wasn't a purely journalistic instinct to go and photograph a protest.
TiP: That was advocacy as much as it was documentation. How do things look now in Poland? Do you think it can get better? We're faced with the same dilemma in the United States right now.
Zieliński: I don't think it has changed any for the better from a legal point of view. It’s even gotten worse in recent months. Women are dying from septic shock and preventable pregnancy complications. So we're stuck with the current situation. But like I said, the movement is here. The protests are not. There's the dynamics of the protests - when masses of people are hitting the streets, and everyone is angry, everyone wants to get things off their chests - it works very, very well in the short term. But, if it's a battle in the long run, then it's like a marathon. You have to be able to continue the fight one way or another. And the fight continues, just not in the streets: there are organizations providing information and assistance to women who want to execute their reproductive rights. Another important thing is that we are no longer afraid or ashamed to talk about it as a society. Women's reproductive health has become a mainstream issue.
TiP: The sustainability is so important, and I think the work you're doing and making available, it is the long term. We can't give up hope in terms of the possibility of change. So, what keeps you going as a photographer? What motivates you?
Zieliński: I am motivated with the APP and the protest work mostly because I found a like-minded community of 17 other photographers and visual artists, and I believe in what we do. I want to keep going. But in terms of other areas of photography, I had my doubts about my recent experiences photographing refugees. These were assignments, so I knew what I had to do, and I knew what was expected. You find yourself in a situation where you are standing in front of people who have been through something like Uganda, the ones escaping shelling or hiding in shelters for days without electricity or food or water, and then arriving at the border. And then you are tasked with photographing them, and then getting some information out. It's not the first thing that should come to a person's mind when you meet someone in distress, obviously. So, I'm sort of doubting, not the actual photography that obviously needs to be done, because I value the journalistic part of photography a lot, and it has its place, but I'm not sure I want to keep going in that direction myself, covering breaking news.
TiP: It’s very difficult and emotional. It's draining, because it's that sense of realizing that ultimately the photograph is powerless in the light of someone else's suffering.
Zieliński: Yeah. You can believe that you contribute in a very small part to a dialogue at large, but not so much that your photos actually make a difference. I would never think that. Because it's not enough just to make photographs - if I make images that nobody sees, then what's the point? Right? Finding an outlet for the work is not that easy these days. But if you succeed and the images are elevated to the pages of a magazine or newspaper that gets distributed to millions of homes around the globe, that's really reaching people, and that makes a little bit of a difference. That is something that would keep me going further.
Zieliński: I am motivated with the APP and the protest work mostly because I found a like-minded community of 17 other photographers and visual artists, and I believe in what we do. I want to keep going. But in terms of other areas of photography, I had my doubts about my recent experiences photographing refugees. These were assignments, so I knew what I had to do, and I knew what was expected. You find yourself in a situation where you are standing in front of people who have been through something like Uganda, the ones escaping shelling or hiding in shelters for days without electricity or food or water, and then arriving at the border. And then you are tasked with photographing them, and then getting some information out. It's not the first thing that should come to a person's mind when you meet someone in distress, obviously. So, I'm sort of doubting, not the actual photography that obviously needs to be done, because I value the journalistic part of photography a lot, and it has its place, but I'm not sure I want to keep going in that direction myself, covering breaking news.
TiP: It’s very difficult and emotional. It's draining, because it's that sense of realizing that ultimately the photograph is powerless in the light of someone else's suffering.
Zieliński: Yeah. You can believe that you contribute in a very small part to a dialogue at large, but not so much that your photos actually make a difference. I would never think that. Because it's not enough just to make photographs - if I make images that nobody sees, then what's the point? Right? Finding an outlet for the work is not that easy these days. But if you succeed and the images are elevated to the pages of a magazine or newspaper that gets distributed to millions of homes around the globe, that's really reaching people, and that makes a little bit of a difference. That is something that would keep me going further.
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